Can writing be taught? Jennifer Probst chimes in.
If there's a book on writing, I own it. And when I saw that Jennifer Probst was releasing a non-fiction novel called WRITE NAKED, I was one-clicking faster than a shopaholic on Black Friday. I am beyond stocked to say that this beautiful book met my high expectations, and then surpassed them. It's interesting, insightful, and so well done. I had to speak to Jennifer myself, and cornered her on a Tuesday morning last week. Listen in to our conversation here:
Mentioned in the video:
On Writing by Stephen King: http://amzn.to/2pk6v2U
Write Naked by Jennifer Probst: http://amzn.to/2pnPB5B
The Talent of the Room by Michael Ventura: Read here
Note: If you are struggling with writing your first novel, or haven't begun yet, please check out my online course, How to Write Your First Book!
Full Transcript:
Alessandra: I'm here today with Jennifer Probst. Thank you so much for coming on Alessandra Torre Ink. I'm so excited to talk to you. Jennifer is a New York Times, Wall Street Journal, USA today, bestselling author, and Write Naked is your newest release, and it's your first non-fiction release. And I am looking right now at my bookshelf and I've got to have 20 books probably on how to write or how to plot or how to outline. And most of them are so painful to get through. Even when they're great information, they're so hard for me as a reader to get through. Only book that I really was able to get through was On Writing by Stephen King. I think your book Write Naked is the same way. It's so effortless to read, which is just such a joy. I don't know how anyone buys a book on writing and decides to write a book because it seem too intimidating. And yours is not like that at all, I love it. I really love it.
Jennifer: Oh, you just made my day. I could absolutely cry because that is exactly what I wanted, so thank you for that. That means so, so much to me, you have no idea.
Alessandra: Absolutely. So how did you decide to write this book? What inspired it? How did you get to this point?
Jennifer: Okay. So honestly, I have been very lucky in my life. I found my true north and I knew I was going to be a writer when I was very young. So going back, we did not have the internet going back. It was a very different world when you wanted to be a writer. There was no information, you didn't know any writers, you would never even dare write a letter to a writer. There was no such thing as knowing editors. So back in the day when I was 10 years old, and this is when I decided that I was going to write books for a living, I found out later, it's not to write books. It's actually to get paid and pay your bills on writing books, but that was later. The only game in town was something called Writer's Digest Books and Writer's Digest magazine. And this would show you all these authors would write these books on craft, and I would save my allowance. I had a subscription to the magazine and I would go to the library and it would pour over these craft books and get them in the mail and look over writer's market, which was this huge Writer's Digest book about where you're sending your stuff to, inquiry letters and all this great stuff. So back in those days I remember like thinking to myself, wow, you know, one day in my wildest dreams come true, maybe I'll be published by Writer's Digest Books and be a "real writer". Okay, so fast forward 35 years, I have read craft books my entire life. I love them. I take my craft seriously. And like you darling, I like a good craft book. I like something that's not going to put me to sleep because then I can't get through it. So I wake up one year ago, about one year ago on New Year's Day, and I've got to write my deadline for my romance book. You know, the new one that I'm working on. And all I can think is I've got passages pouring through my brain about writing. I'm talking about writing philosophy, writing craft, what I've learned about being a writer. This voice is going on and on. And I say to myself, it's time to write my writing book. This book that has been percolating for 35 years, because I did not have the life experience, the writing experience behind me, the time; I was waiting for the time to be right, and I knew it was. So New Year's Day, I say to my husband, I'm going to write this book on writing. And he goes, "Okay, honey, will your agent like that?" And I go; "I don't care. I'm doing it." Now, I start writing for two weeks straight and I just start writing chapters and figuring things out. And I call my agent and then I go, "I want to write this book on how to write a book, writing romance, writings from philosophy, from craft, to being in a room, locked for hours. Like, things that is interesting to me, things that make me who I am." So my agent said, "Okay, you need to do with this proposal." I said I've never done a proposal for nonfiction before, what do I do? She sends me a link, look it up, you know, that's exactly what I did. So I spent a week, I did an outline; I did like seven chapters of the book. I sent it up to my agent, just like I was a new writer. What's interesting to me is you can always be a new writer. It doesn't matter if you're doing a new genre or if you're new at doing something that you haven't known before. It's a wonderful career because it's always fresh and new for me. So she got it, she read the chapters; she absolutely went crazy over it. And when we started going down our list, going to publish after publisher, after publisher, and at the end, we were down to two that were interested and guess who was interested? Writer’s Digest Book. And not only were they interested, the editor ended up calling me and said, "I am madly passionate about this book. I've never read anything like it. I must have this book for writer's digest." And to me, that was more important than anything that the editor loved it, got it knew what I was doing. It was a passion project that has nothing to do with branding or money; it was something I needed to do. And so, right away we signed on and that is how the book came to fruition. That's amazing, right?
Alessandra: I love it. How great that you, you know, really came full circle back to your beginning.
Jennifer: That is how I look at things. And I think, and I tell writers that all the time; you never know going back where you start and where you end up. It was a full circle that I never saw coming, but it is just so poetic and beautiful, and I just love sharing this book because it really literally is 35 years in the making, from a young writer, starting out to, you know, working on my 33rd book right now. And it's also a book to me that shows that even though I put a lot of expertise out there, I'm always a student. You're always a student in this career. You never get it right. I'm starting a new book right now, and I feel like I just started writing for the first time. So, that's another thing that amazes me. You always go back to square one.
Alessandra: I absolutely agree. And with every book, I think I get better personally and I learned new things and I think just writing styles change over time and we branch into new genres. And you never get bored because you're creating your world as you go, you know, and we have no rules… it's the coolest job on earth, it really is. But now, you went to school, I mean, I know you started reading and learning your craft young, but then, you went to school for business. Am I correct? And then got a master's in creative writing, so you are professionally trained? I mean, as well as teaching yourself when you were younger; you're professionally trained. How did that degree in creative variety affect your writing? Has it helped? Has it hurt? Do you use that? I've never gone to school for writing, so I don't know. What they teach in schools, how much of that do you use?
Jennifer: Well, this is such a great question, and this is a little different because it's actually not a degree in creative writing. The degree is actually called English Literature. And within the master's degree, there were several writing courses that I did... writing classes, but a lot of it is mostly mainly focused on literature, analyzing literature, writing different types of, you know, from the essay to the article, to the persuasive. There are MSA degrees out there where people will go and just study with professional writing teachers and just write, so this is a little different. So when I decided to get my business degree, it was because, you know, when I was young, I went in, you know, when I was 18 and as much as I knew that I was going to be a writer, I needed to pay bills. I needed to leave my parents' house. I needed to get a job, so I was actually quite afraid. And I decided to study business; again, looking back, it was the right thing to do. Every time you look back and think, "Oh, I wish I had done this. I wish I had done that," you find out that later in life, you correct those things, and maybe it was better to do them later on. Because that business degree helped me go out into the world and be a person and be this business executive and meet different types people and deal with different people. Because writing is also a business; it's not just being locked up in an office. You have to be a professional person. You have to deal with many level of other professionals and bosses and deadlines. And so, this business degree, I think was critical and helping me deal with multiple people being on deadline putting yourself out there. So later on when I got married and I had two kids, I decided that my dream was to also finish and get a master's degree in something that I was passionate about. So I took an online degree; it took me four years to do. I think it was about four to five years. I did a class like a class kind of a semester online. I had two kids in diapers at the time and a full-time job. So it was absolutely insane, but I was passionate about it because I was in a different place in my life, and I was able to really study short fiction, writing short fiction. I was able to study how powerful women writers like Virginia Wolf, take a part classics and literature from all different types of you know, worlds and learn with other students. So to me, it helps me in ways that morphed back into my actual writing of analyzing things, looking at different perspectives in literature, and that's, you know, yes, I was studying, you know, Edith Wharton and Virginia Wolf, and Ernest Hemingway, and Albert Camus and all the big greats in Shakespeare and stuff like that. But to me, it really helped in genre fiction. It helped me in TV. When I watched the Walking Dead episode, I'm able to break down from scene to scene how the writers really constructed it, so I loved that about the degree. I also think it helped with, again, you were consistently writing projects with other people in groups and you needed to make those projects on deadline, whether or not your son was up with the virus 24-hours a day, and you were exhausted and you got home, you know, laid on traffic. It helps you realize that life is about meeting deadlines and writing when you don't want to write. It has nothing to do with being inspired. It means looking at it as a job. So when all of those aspects, I feel like any degree, whether it be a writing or an English Literature or a business, will help morph back into the writing. Does that make sense?
Alessandra: It does make sense.
Jennifer: Okay, because I ramble a lot. Yes.
Alessandra: Much like life experience. I mean, it's so valuable in the stories we create and we can't tell believable stories if we haven't walked in some of those paths or experienced some of those things. And like you said, this is a business. I mean, I would love to say that we just write and that's it.
Jennifer: Oh, wouldn't that be wonderful, no.
Alessandra: But I also enjoy it. You know, it's a good balance. I think if I was just in a room with a pad of paper all day long, I'd probably go a little crazy, so it's nice to have the about. Now, do you... well, I'm going to throw an extra question in there.
Jennifer: Sure.
Alessandra: Because I'm now looking at sort of a new way. If your son just said, "Mom, I want to be... I want to write suspense. I know that's what I want to do." He's been writing since he's young and he graduates high school. Would you suggest he... and he wants to dive into writing full-time, writing his own novels? Would you suggest instead that he takes the time to get a degree in creative writing or in business? Or would you say, you know, because a lot of us say, "Oh, I wish I could have started when I was eight. You know, I'd have 20 more books right now."
Jennifer: Okay. I just loved this question, and my answer is probably going to be a little off, but I would say because I have two boys right now and they are as much as they're so close and they're best friends. And a lot of people think they're twins. They are completely different people. I have to parent them differently because I admire and respect who they are as different people. So, I would say maybe one person needs that structure and group support and wants to study writing under a professional writing teacher because that is their pathway. And another person I would say; maybe your pathway is a little bit more of a rounded out. Maybe you need to go to college and study business or study this and complete and write consistently on the side and like experience life and bring life experiences into your writing. And maybe somebody, I would say, go into journalism so you can learn how to write sharp and clean and you're out on current events and you know how to write a column or a personal essay. So, it's a funny answer because I really think it is about knowing who you are, what you want to do, and there really isn't a wrong answer. The only answer and having a writing career is whether you study it formally on an MFA creative writing, or you go for an English literature, or you don't even do that. You just do business. You have to write consistently in whatever mode it is, whether it be, you know, a blog post, a novel, an essay, a short, anything that is getting your writing to the next level of craft; that is the only way to really be a writer. It is consistently writing, and people don't realize that. As much as you would love to study writing and study Stephen King; if you put you and Stephen King in a room and you say, Stephen King, I want you for the next week to just fill my head with absolutely everything; it's going to be great, right. But the bottom line is, and I put this in Write naked, I put this, it's called The Talent of the Room by Michael Ventura. It is an essay that I read consistently because it reminds me, to be a writer means you at your computer or with a pen alone in a room. Stephen King may be there, but he's not really there. So the only way to learn craft is by to actually write consistently and learn the craft that way. The rest is wonderful and it's all gravy and you may bring that into your mind to the page, but it's really you alone in a room writing the book. That's what it is. Yeah. So however you follow that path, people are going to come to it in different ways, and I totally respect that. And that's what I love. I hear people will take a writing degree and they'll come from that way. Other people have never study writing. They just write, you know, alone and they learn their craft that way. I just don't think there's a wrong way as long as you're practicing the craft.
Alessandra: I absolutely agree. I absolutely agree with that and that sort of feeds into the net. So, I mean, do you think that writing is a gift that... I absolutely agree that you take whatever gifts you have and you have to make it better by repetition and by writing. But do you think that it's something that just some people have, do you think it's something that can be taught, do you think it's an innate gift or do you think someone can be taught to write?
Jennifer: I think it's both. I think there are writers out there that are so brilliant that they have such a godly gift. You know, sometimes I'll read from a book and I'll know. I mean, the thing is, is that I'm also realistic. I know what I can write. I know I can push myself to a certain level, but I can pick up, let's say J.K Rowling and be like, dude, I'm never going to be this. That is just honest, and what I do is I appreciate it. I can meditate on it. I can read it. It is a gift in the world. It is greatness, but let's take that gift and say, you're not J.K. Let's say you have this gift. There are people out there who have an innate gift of writing. And this also morphed into the talent of the room. They have this gift, they are blessed throughout school. Teachers will say to them, you are from another level; you have something that is almost godly or magical or whatever you want to say. This person is gifted, right. But what if this person does not use that gift, but what if this person does not write on a regular basis or just throws out something here or there. That person is not going to reach the greatness of writing on a constant basis that somebody else that has less of a talent, but more of the drive and more of the discipline and more as a passion to make themselves better every single day. Guess what? I'm going to say that the person that studies and writes every day and wants to be great is going to go further than the person who has been struck by the lightning gods of talent and creativity, because it is still about the work ethic. So yes, I think there are people out there that are blessed and if they do well with their talent and they put it out there, I just think it's a gift in this world. I mean, there's writers that we all pick up that we know. I mean, I know I'll never be. I know my restrictions, but I knew my restrictions and I took my gift and I practiced and I read craft and I wrote every single day and I may never be J.K. Rowling. I know I won't, but I am going to be the best writer that I can be, and I think that's pretty great. So, that's how I look at it. Yes, there's innate gift, but it is what you do with your gift. And if you practice your gifts and if you really put your all into it, and I see it all the time, I see gifts wasted by people who are either lazy or not ready to really, you know, dive into that path. And so, I think the people who have a tiny bit of a nugget, if they nurture it like a small fire, they can blaze just as great as somebody with an innate talent. I truly, truly believe that, it's the work they put in the world.
Alessandra: Yeah, I agree. And I think it's like a novel, like, it's the difference between someone who just writes the first draft and says I'm done. It's good. And the difference between taking that first draft and really working at it and, you know, giving it a couple of rounds of rewrite and really trying and how much good that book can become.
Jennifer: Yeah. You take Michael Angelo and you think, you know, there's no way that, you know, Michael Angelo just like carved out a piece of stone and said, "Hey, look guys, isn't this awesome." I mean, this guy worked. He worked, I mean, how many hours in the Sistine Chapel. People don't realize that you can have a gift and start with square one. But if you don't have the drive, the determination, the absolute sweat and blood that it takes to make that gift and take it to the next level, you will never take it to the next level. And I have always been about that. I'm the worker bee in the room because I had to get through high school. I watched people who never studied and got A's and I'm sitting there sweating it out going, "I want my B, I want my B." But, you know, I think that's just as good. And I just don't want anybody to ever feel like that is wasted. You can always be the best you that you can be, and you can probably outperform some of the people who didn't do anything.
Alessandra: Yes, absolutely great, and I love that answer. Okay, so last, we're just going to do a lightning round. I'm just going to ask the question and just put at me whatever you got. Perfect. What's your biggest weakness as a writer?
Jennifer: The middle, the saggy middle, where it all falls apart and I don't think I can get to the end because it's not fun anymore. It's not happy, and it's a mess.
Alessandra: I'm the exact thing. I'm in the same boat as you. I love that. And what's your biggest strength?
Jennifer: I'm going to say finishing things that I started and I am very good at dialogue. I love dialogue. I love getting into a character screen and seeing how they work. So that has always been one of my strengths in my writing is just perseverance to just get through and writing sparkling really fun dialogue because it's something that I love to do.
Alessandra: And how many days a week do you write?
Jennifer: I write every day, but I mean, on weekends I spend the time with my family. If I can write an hour in the morning I do. If I don't, I never worry about it. When I go to Disney world, I never write, I don't care if I'm in Disney with Mickey Mouse seven days; I will not write in those seven days. On Easter holidays, I will not write, but on a regular work week, so my kids went back to school in spring break; I'm just like them. I write my six hours a day. I spend enough time with my kids and then I hopefully write about two hours a night. But again, within there is all the business that has to be done. And so I like to, you know, I'm very well-known; when my husband comes home. I'm a crazy person. Alessandra, I'm a writer. So my husband will come home and I'll like, "Ask me, ask me how many words I've written." And he goes, "I don't want to, honey. Can we just put dinner on the table?" I'm like, "Nope, not until you asked me, asked me." And he goes, "How many words have you written?" I'm like, "Zero. Zilcho, let's take out the red pen. Loser, I have not written anything." But at the same time, I can say, I've done this, this and this, and I've had a very busy day, but I like to count a good day with the word written. Sometimes you can't. I can just hope everybody has a supportive spouse, you know, mother, friend; anybody who can embrace the crazy.
Alessandra: And what's a good day? Like what do you on a normal writing day where you can actually get time to write, you know, away from the business end of it, how many words?
Jennifer: Yes. 1500 to 2000 words is fabulous day. It is a strong day. If I am struggling and I get 750 words on the page, that's okay. If I'm on deadline, I will literally can crank out three to five, and I have once done 7,000 words in one day. But that's when I reached the end, I know my book and now I'm coasting. So, it does depend on the day. A very good average, like today I literally opened up my document and I'm starting a brand new book. Today at the end of the day, I want 2000 words on my page and I will feel like I did a very good job.
Alessandra: Yeah. I'm writing about the same. I love a 2000 word day, and anything over that is great.
Jennifer: Yeah. It's crazy. It's solid. It's a work in progress. I'll take that. Whether it's a bad or a good word, I could care less; 2000 words on the page can always be fixed.
Alessandra: How we can find Write Naked? I know it's on My Local Bookstore. It was there. And it's an ebook. Is it also an audio book?
Jennifer: You know, that is such a great question, a lot of persons asked me that; no, it is not an audio book now, but I actually am talking with Writer's Digest about hopefully getting that in the works. Right now it is in print form. It is in all the local books sale, Booksellers, Barnes and Noble. It's on Amazon. It's on Ibooks. You can get it pretty much anywhere in digital or in print books form.
Alessandra: If they do do an audio book, you should definitely narrate it.
Jennifer: Oh, you are adorable. That is so sweet. I have never thought of doing that.
Alessandra: I know I can never narrate a romance novel, but I think with it as a non-fiction, it'd be so great, you know, it would certainly work.
Jennifer: No, I am going to actually think about that because even if I did it on my own, because it is my story and it is pretty much, it would be a lot of fun to do that. I'm going to take that into consideration.
Alessandra: You know what I mean? It could be very conversation in tone; it'd cool. But thank you so much for giving us this time this morning and for this book. It’s so wonderful, everybody should read it. I used to say everybody should read On Writing and now everybody should read On Writing and Write Naked.
Jennifer: Oh my goodness.
Alessandra: I can't wait to see the lives it changes, so thank you so much.
Jennifer: Thank you for having me. It has been such a pleasure. I have always, always looked upon you. I love your writing, Alessandra. I love what you're doing with bringing writers into education in the fold, and knowing that you love this book really means the world to me, and I hope many readers out there find the same. So it's been an honor to join you today. It really has.
